Interview with Alison
[00:00:00] Alison: I’m Alison, I’ve got a seven month old baby girl who I’m still breastfeeding at the moment, and I’ve also got a two and a half year old little girl.
[00:00:06] Lisa: How well prepared would you say that you were for breastfeeding? It’s always something I like to ask people, like, were you breastfed? Did you know much about breastfeeding before you had a baby?
[00:00:17] Lisa: Did you know much about motherhood?
[00:00:18] Alison: In my work with the children, I think, I felt like I knew a lot about motherhood, but No, I didn’t, and I think I just assumed breastfeeding would be easy. My sister had had children about 10 years before I did, but her breastfeeding journey was really easy, and I hadn’t had any people around me that had had difficult journeys, so I just assumed it would be, you know, easy peasy, breastfeeding, and So yeah, I think I was just quite naive, really, and I think that They don’t want to promote that this, that people find it difficult because they don’t want to put you off because of all the, you know, the benefits of breastfeeding and I was really keen to breastfeed, so I thought, yes, I’m going to do this, but actually when I, when it came to it, it was really, really difficult for me, so I was underprepared and I found at the beginning, I had a lot of people coming out to see me, this was with my first daughter, who would say oh the latch is good, it looks fine, and I was thinking I’m in so much pain, and I don’t understand why this isn’t working, and you just kind of feel lost, and like why is my body failing me, and I think that initial lack of support right at the beginning, and people saying oh you’re doing well, I just was, yeah, it was really tricky.
[00:01:22] Lisa: Would you say that’s the first time you felt like your body let you down? You said, you said you felt like your body was failing you. I’ve heard women say that before and quite often I’ve noticed that’s something that women mention when they’ve had trouble getting pregnant or when they’ve had other experiences of like their body just not doing what it’s supposed to do.
[00:01:42] Lisa: Or was that the first time you really felt like, oh this, this really isn’t, this is supposed to be easy but this isn’t easy for me?
[00:01:49] Alison: I think I’d always struggled with, like, my weight and things like that, so I think sometimes my body and my brain didn’t always match up. So I felt like with breastfeeding it was another thing, you know, that kind of thing.
[00:01:59] Alison: And also with the birth, I’d planned a home birth, and I did have a home birth, but it became quite a frantic, last minute rush because they felt the baby was stuck, and they’d called an ambulance at the home birth midwives. So there was an ambulance outside my house. It was likely that I was going to be transferred into hospital.
[00:02:14] Alison: I felt quite anxious, and at the time I think, I was feeling like, my body’s let me down, she’s got me stuck, I thought I’d be able to birth this baby. And in the end, I did push her out, stood near the fireplace, but there was that, the ambulance aside, and it did feel very tense and worrying for a while, until she came, and then we went into hospital, I needed some stitches, so that’s why we were transferred in after the birth, to my first daughter.
[00:02:36] Alison: And I think, I just felt like, A little bit like I’d failed in that first birth, so I think that maybe that started off my journey not so good. And also, because we were at home, I was in skin to skin with baby after she was born for a short time, but there was a pressure to get in that ambulance and get to the hospital and kind of use that resource that had been waiting outside.
[00:02:56] Alison: They, they don’t feed it up, breast feeder will do that when you get to the hospital. So I think kind of missing that skin to skin, it was a very brief time. And then when I got into hospital, I was being given my sutures as I was given my first. Breastfeeding lesson and I was on gas and air, so it felt like not the best circumstances to start that journey and I felt like, yeah, I didn’t feel in control of my body and I think the brain and body, it was just stressed so it didn’t start off on the way it should have really.
[00:03:25] Alison: Yeah, that’s perhaps why I say my body felt like it failed me, because it kind of didn’t start off on the right foot, and then I was very naive. So things like pumping, I’d never heard about pumping and expressing, I didn’t understand the sort of supply and demand need for breastfeeding. So I was just, yeah, a bit lost in the beginning, and I think that and me feeling like I’d failed a little bit, that, that added to The stress and it not working out so great at the beginning.
[00:03:50] Lisa: Statistically, breastfeeding is the best thing for your baby, and vaginal birth is the best thing for your baby. But there’s also this whole other pushback against that, which is about whether or not that’s setting women up to fail, and whether it’s making women feel worse about, you know, maybe a birth where they have a healthy baby.
[00:04:14] Lisa: But I suppose one of the problems is that The NHS, being driven by best practice and research, often wants what they know is statistically the best thing and that can lead to things maybe being true. Rather target driven, and I think in the Ockenden report that came up, that women were being left in labour too long, and women weren’t being given C sections when they needed them, and I mean, it sounds like, in your case, they were very much on it, and like, really trying to help you, but all that preparation around natural birth can sometimes mean that the actual, kind of, chaos of birth can leave you feeling Like it went wrong and yet I’m not sure there is, I mean there probably is a right, isn’t there, that’s like one of those ecstatic births where, where you’re like screaming with joy and I’ve met people who had births like that but it is quite unusual I think.
[00:05:10] Alison: Yeah, I think it’s all about having choices isn’t it and being informed and I think the NHS as you say kind of led by, We’re going to let you go to this date, or we think this is best for you, and it’s kind of their target, so it’s about, for me it was about feeling in control of my birth, and I think, because of the home birth, I thought, I’ve made that decision to have a home birth, but then things were going awry, and people were making decisions, and sort of, we’re going to have to go in, I just felt like I was out of control, and I think for my second birth, You know, this is how I’m gonna do it.
[00:05:37] Alison: ’cause I want to feel like I own it and I, I am in control of my body and we’re doing it this way. So I kind of was having a much more hands off birth because I feel like with my first, my, my labor was progressing well, but then the team arrived and that’s when things slowed down. So I think I’m quite a, a not very confident person.
[00:05:54] Alison: I feel like I felt like I was being watched when I was giving, you know, in labor. So I think that that stopped things flowing so well. So this time. I started off realising I was in labour at about half ten at night, and I didn’t even tell my partner, I just sort of thought, right, I’m going to go to bed, try and go to sleep, and try and be calm, and I was really calm, and was able to go to sleep, and then at 4am, my waters broke, and I was up from that point, I didn’t even wake anybody up, and I kind of, Laboured on my own, just another 45 minutes or an hour, and I woke my partner up, and then within 20 minutes she was here, and I birthed her on my, pretty much on my own in the living room, and delivered her myself.
[00:06:30] Alison: My partner was in the next room filling up the birth pool, but I was thinking, we’re not going to need that, there’s not going to be time. And having that experience where I was in control of that, it helped me feel confident like I’d not, you know, not failed. I’d done it how I wanted to do it. And I’d done a lot of research about rebirthing and because what had happened was I was planning to have the home birth team there, but I’d called up and said, I’m in labour, just make your way.
[00:06:53] Alison: And they wouldn’t send anybody out because I was 36 weeks and six days. So I was one day off of term, which there’s, it’s not that policy to send anybody out. So I said, Well, thanks, but I’m going to have a home birth, and that’s what I’m going to do. So they then said, oh, we’ll call the team and see if they can send somebody out.
[00:07:10] Alison: But they said ring an ambulance. And I said, I’m not going to have an ambulance there, because I knew that would just be causing, you know, lights would be on pressure. So they called back later, but baby had already been born. You know, they wouldn’t have got there anyway. But I think part of that wasn’t an unconscious decision to not have the baby.
[00:07:24] Alison: People around because I felt kind of that I put me off last time being and it made my labour longer whereas this was a six, seven hour labour and baby was here and she was fine. So it was like a, yes, I did it this time, you know, I was able to do it. I didn’t, she didn’t get stuck. I felt quite confident. I was on my living room floor saying I can do this.
[00:07:42] Alison: You can do this. I knew my partner was there. I’d done a free birthing course. So I knew about different, Things that could go wrong, and I know the odds of that. That is quite scary for some people, I felt like they were quite small, and I was aware of what to do when we could call an ambulance if we needed.
[00:07:57] Alison: But they are minute, the chances of things going, going wrong, so I felt quite confident. Baby just arrived, and it was fine, so I think that this time it’s been a different journey because I felt that it wasn’t that stressed, and I did it, and my body didn’t fail me. But with my first daughter, the infant feeding team concluded that I didn’t have sufficient breast tissue to breastfeed, and that’s why my journey had been really difficult as well.
[00:08:20] Alison: So it was kind of something that was out of my control. With her, I was only able to breastfeed about 25 percent of the milk that she needed, whereas this time it’s been much more like 50 percent I’ve been able to do myself. We had a bit of an interesting journey compared to others in that we didn’t want to use formula.
[00:08:35] Alison: We felt that breast milk was best. We actually have used donor milk because we were also vegan. And we didn’t want to use cow’s milk formula because our family, that’s, you know, ethically not something that we were as comfortable with. You know, if other people do that, that’s absolutely fine in their choice, but we wanted to use breast milk.
[00:08:51] Alison: So that’s something else that we’ve done is used other mothers breast milk to make sure the babies are fed.
[00:08:56] Lisa: This is, like, remarkable. I mean, first of all, I think you’re the first person I’ve ever met that’s free birthed. Oh, really? I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone that I don’t Oh, no. My friend Jen, she had a midwife there and she was in a birth pool and she wanted the kind of birth that you’re describing as second birth to be.
[00:09:14] Lisa: This was her first birth. And I always remember her saying to me, you know, Giving birth is like doing a poo and you don’t really want people watching you. It doesn’t help. And she said at the moment when she really felt like she wanted to push, she got out of the pool and she went to be on her own and they let her be on her own and then her partner went up to her and he was able to catch the baby.
[00:09:41] Lisa: I mean, I just want to know that moment that, I know this isn’t breastfeeding, but it’s, it’s really connected because Just sort of instinctively I asked you that question about your body failing you and then it’s like all this stuff. It’s amazing because I detected something in that comment and what’s so incredible to me is that you took what was probably quite a disempowering experience in your minds and you’d completely flipped it and it’s I think often the second child is really different, but this is like, so radically different.
[00:10:15] Lisa: The description of having your suitors done while doing your breastfeeding lesson, that’s so tragic. Yeah, and I’d be told, yeah, I can’t promise. Why do that to someone? Why put them through that? They’ve just given birth, why, why ask them? to try to learn a totally new difficult skill while having stitches.
[00:10:40] Lisa: That’s a very time poor situation where they’ve thought that you’re way more capable than you would have been in that situation. And I’d
[00:10:49] Alison: come from home, you know, the home environment, been whisked an ambulance and then I was told, you know, um, the midwife that had been there at the home birth would do the sutures and it would be on the midwife led unit, so it would be quiet and it would start, but actually there was no room when we got there, I was on the labour ward, I could hear women in labour having a difficult time and then the bright lights were on and I was being stitched by two different.
[00:11:10] Alison: It wasn’t kind of how it had been sold and yeah, it wasn’t the best start that I, you know, completely agree, I think that’s part of why. Yeah, we didn’t start off on a good foot, and then everyone was just saying, Oh, you’re doing really well with it, but I could tell I wasn’t. And baby’s weight was dropping, that was, we got admitted to hospital on day eight for really significant weight loss, and she kept dropping weight even then, so we were having sort of, Every day midwives were coming out to weigh her for I think the first two or three, four weeks of her life and then that dropped down but it’s a lot of pressure, isn’t it?
[00:11:40] Alison: That kind of intensity.
[00:11:42] Lisa: When was she readmitted? Like how old was she?
[00:11:44] Alison: We went in for the sutures and came out and then day eight was when we were admitted for significant weight loss. And we were in for a couple of nights. We never got readmitted after that, but we were open to the infant feeding team and we tried her with, with some vegan formulas and she just wasn’t thriving on those.
[00:12:01] Alison: She wasn’t gaining the weight and I was pumping, I was on it, you know, that cycle of every two hours pumping, power pumping. Feeding, breastfeeding, giving a top up to the formula, it just wasn’t getting it there. But it was at two weeks when we started the donor milk, we kind of had a light bulb moment when that was mentioned and saw that there was this community out there through social media of women that were saying, I’ve got this extra milk, I’ve got an oversupply.
[00:12:23] Alison: So we were able to sort of tap into that and then that’s when the donor milk just started to do really well. You know. Was that frozen? Frozen donor milk? Yeah. In the most. I had one donor that we travelled. Yeah. Yeah. I think near Bolton, I was going over there nearly every week and she would give me, you know, her fridge was full of the fresh milk, she was a surrogate and then had, was sending milk to her surrogate child down south and giving us the milk in, you know, in big bottles that was fresh, and then she’d give me a load of frozen packets as well.
[00:12:50] Alison: She was amazing. So she was like my main donor, and then I had lots and lots of other people that were just, you know, they’ve got an oversupply in the freezer, they wanted room for their oven chips again, and were like, I need to move this milk on, and I’m like, yeah, we’ll have that please. So lots of frozen milk as well.
[00:13:04] Alison: But with that, we were able to feed, my first daughter was up to a year with, with my milk, which was about 25 percent of her diet, and the 75 percent from donor milk, and then we’re at seven months with my, Little girl at the moment with me being around 50 percent and we’re still using frozen milk with her as well.
[00:13:21] Alison: So I’m hoping to get to a year like a sister as well on breast milk. Is it
[00:13:25] Lisa: the same donor for your second child?
[00:13:27] Alison: No, it’s different, different women. And we, it was lots of different donors for my first child. I think we used over 20 women’s different breast milk. And this time we’re something like 15 or at this point, but I go and meet all of these women and I, you know, I meet their babies and kind of talk to them.
[00:13:43] Alison: And so you kind of get a feel of, You know, who they are as well, and they just want to help, and they’ve got this oversupply of this, this milk, and want to make sure it gets used, and, and we need it, so, yeah, it’s a, it’s a really lovely thing, and I met some really lovely women, and amazing women that, through that process.
[00:14:00] Lisa: I really wanted that system, because I had Uh, loss of weight, etc. and I looked for it and, and my daughter has a real problem with lactose, we now know, but we didn’t know that then, but she just was losing weight, she wasn’t getting anywhere on formula and I was really desperate and I did re lactate, I did the power point pumping and stuff, it was brutal.
[00:14:21] Lisa: But it worked for me, but it did take months and it sort of broke me as well, you know, physically. Wow. So, I’ve got really Good friend who has had a baby at the same time. She’s Estonian. She said, oh, well in in Estonia You know everyone breastfeeds because like during the Soviet Union there was no formula.
[00:14:40] Lisa: They didn’t exist I was like, so what happened to women who who couldn’t breastfeed and she said well I just went to their sister or their friend or their neighbor or their you know, someone
[00:14:51] Alison: Be a wet nurse. It was really lovely, especially that one donor that we saw all the time Yeah, I couldn’t thank her enough and the women that you know, they There were some amazing women with their own breastfeeding stories that they would share with me, and I just, yeah, I was amazed by women, that was kind of how I felt from, and the support, you know, that they were there to, and people offering to pump, because this time we had difficulty again, obviously, and with little one, we were in hospital with jaundice this time, which really affected feeding, we had another tricky start.
[00:15:20] Alison: So I posted on a home birth local group saying, we’re in hospital at the moment, is there anyone who could offer us some milk? And people were offering to, you know, spend their time pumping for us to get milk so that we could, and I just think that’s so kind and amazing that people, you know, people, mothers are busy enough and feeding their own children and everything else that goes with being a mum.
[00:15:37] Alison: So yeah, I’ve just been amazed by, yeah, the support of other women. It’s been great. I always thought I was a
[00:15:43] Lisa: feminist till I had a child and then I kind of realised You know, that I was never a feminist until I was 12, you know, and in fact, this idea of a community of women, you do find that in cultures that we don’t think of as being very feminist.
[00:15:58] Lisa: That’s one of the sort of ironies about the West is that we feel like we’re simply liberated and we’ve got all these rights, but actually in so much of that solidity of community amongst women, and it’s really lovely to hear that, that you found that in this, I think, entirely modern way, but it’s also very ancient.
[00:16:16] Alison: Yeah, yeah, it’s like the wet nurse thing, but it’s like a modern way of doing it, isn’t it, with social media. And it was a journey I didn’t expect to be taking, and travelling all over collecting milk from different people. And I can understand why some people would hear about it and might think, Oh, that’s strange, oh, that wouldn’t be for me, but You know, it worked for us, and that’s when she was starting to thrive, from our first daughter, when we got that donor milk, and it was the best decision we made, because the formula wasn’t working out, and, and it saved a life, that all that milk from the other women.
[00:16:46] Alison: Yeah, it was an empowering, because we made the decision, this is what we’re going to do. Feeling empowered, and that you’ve made the choice about how you’re going to do things, with your birth, with you, with your feeding journey. That’s kind of what, you know, It’s been kind of a big lesson for me that I had no idea about, you know, these things would become so important.
[00:17:01] Alison: I’ve never found something so hard in my life, breastfeeding the first time. You know, when you put all your energy and effort, and you’re so sleep deprived, and you’re waking up, pumping every two hours, feeding the baby on your chest, and then giving the bottle in, and that means, oh, I’ve got 20 minutes to go to sleep before I start this again.
[00:17:17] Alison: At the time, you felt broken, like You can’t, how am I even alive? You just feel absolutely exhausted, but then reflecting back, when you’re out of that, you know, you can see the wood for the trees, you think actually, yeah, that is empowering, because I did that, you know, I managed to get through that really difficult time, and I fed my baby okay, I needed a lot of help from other people, but I was able to breastfeed.
[00:17:39] Alison: So I think it has been really empowering and I’ve learnt that, you know, I can be very tenacious and kind of this second time around, I think because of feeling a bit disempowered and lost and broken at times, I really kind of prepared for a difficult journey again and it’s become much smoother because we, we were ready this time.
[00:17:56] Alison: Donor milk was in the freezer before she was born, just in case. And I was just in a different mindset this time around as well. I’d had Covid just before giving birth as well, the first time. I think I was quite run down and, but yeah, breastfeeding. I think it’s just a world I’d never known about really.
[00:18:11] Alison: I thought it would be something quite easy, but there’s all this to it. Never thought about donor milk. Didn’t know there’d be all these challenges. Yeah, I’ve learned a lot about myself that I can really, I can be very tenacious even if it’s to the point where I’m really run down and, but, I think at the time with my first daughter I just felt like what else would I do?
[00:18:28] Alison: What, how else am I going to feed her? And it was really difficult to give up. I think a lot of mums feel really guilty about letting it go and giving up, even if it’s to their detriment at the time or the baby’s ready. It’s a really difficult, emotionally, I’d never thought it would be so emotional.
[00:18:42] Alison: Because I stopped breastfeeding my first at seven and a half months because I’d had really bad breasts. Crap nipples, milk blebs. I used shields for the whole journey because my nipples were so sore and I could never get her off of that. She had really bad latch. Every feed felt like pain, every single feed for my first journey.
[00:18:58] Alison: But I continued nevertheless. It was really strange, you know. Now looking back I think, why did I do that? Oh, but at the time it just felt like I needed to keep feeding and feeding her. And I gave up at seven and a half months, my first daughter. This time it’s so different. I think it’s, she was just so small.
[00:19:15] Alison: I think feeding was really difficult for her. She had a really small mouth. We just never got into that, that dance together. It just didn’t ever kind of really work. Whereas this time me and my youngest, we’re really working. We’re in sync and my supply issue is an issue, but we, the feeding isn’t painful.
[00:19:31] Alison: It sometimes is, but most of the time it’s really good. And it’s lovely to be able to, you know, enjoy breastfeeding, which was never something I felt. That would ever happen with my first journey, so it’s been really, healing is this time round, when the first time was really, really in the thick of it, feeling really difficult, but this time it’s been really, Really positive.
[00:19:53] Alison: And that’s why I feel like I’ve had the confidence to come and do the Holding Time.
[00:19:57] Lisa: I love to hear that. Obviously, I’m very committed to, as someone who has had, like you, lots of problems, I’m really, really committed to being honest about that. I feel like we do ourselves a real disservice if we are not honest.
[00:20:11] Lisa: about problems and the challenges. What women really do want is inspiration. They want to know, like, we all know what’s wrong with the world, don’t we? And we kind of all know, okay, like, you know, the NHS can’t be everything to everyone and, you know, the support teams are there and they’re really dedicated.
[00:20:31] Lisa: But, In the end, it is kind of down to you, isn’t it, a lot of the time, having only 25 percent of the breast tissue available to, to feed, that’s like such a huge obstacle that you faced, and the fact you overcame that is really remarkable and amazing to me, I didn’t even realise there was such an established network of, of like wet nurses, realise there was That’s, that’s really, really interesting.
[00:20:59] Lisa: That’s a really new thing. I think that must be only in the last five years that that’s really sprung up.
[00:21:04] Alison: Yeah, there’s a main group called Human Milk for Human Babies and that’s where I mostly got my milk from. But people go on there searching for milk or saying I’ve got an oversupply and lots of people, you mentioned about people have an allergy, some people have realise my baby’s got an allergy so I don’t want to waste this milk, can someone make use of it?
[00:21:25] Alison: Some people are on there just because they want to help others. There’s lots of different reasons people, you know, have excess milk. And it’s great, they’re just posting on there saying, I’m in Manchester, is anyone nearby, want to come and collect? And mothers on there asking, you know, I’m in the neonatal unit, etc.
[00:21:40] Alison: Different scenarios where they, they would like breast milk. Yeah, there’s that and another couple of groups that I’ve used, but it’s all been, we’ve never had to pay for milk, people have just donated this out of the kindness. I’ve offered, you know, for things like pump parts, so, and the bags that you pump into, so that I’ve replaced them for the mums.
[00:21:58] Alison: But people don’t want to be, you know, they don’t want presents, they don’t want, they just want to do this and obviously, They also feel really great that their milk is getting put to good use and is helping other babies thrive as well. So yeah, it does seem like a really, it’s something I would never have known about, but I’m really glad we found out about it and were able to tap into it.
[00:22:15] Alison: And I think the more people know about that as an option, it’s great, because I think people often do just go to formula. And, and human milk obviously has loads of different health benefits that the formula can’t always offer. So it’s just something else to think about as a possible option if you are in this situation where you aren’t able to fully feed or want to combination feed or you don’t have to mix up the formula, it’s just there in the fridge and just warm it up in the jug and it’s there ready to use so it’s, It’s also more convenient than doing formula, really.
[00:22:43] Alison: It’s been life changing, is getting involved with the community, people out there. And it’s ever changing as well, because people obviously breastfeed for a certain amount of time, and then they let that go, so then there’ll be new mums. So, that’s why there’s so many different donors, because it’s always lots of different mums in different parts of their journey.
[00:23:00] Lisa: It’s incredible. I mean, it’s really lovely to hear about it.
[00:23:05] Alison: For new mothers, I’d just say, There’s, there’s help out there. Don’t feel like you’re alone if you’re finding things tricky. Somebody else will be going through it at that moment in the middle of the night at the exact same time. There’s loads of different things that, yeah, two breastfeeding that you wouldn’t have known about until you started it.
[00:23:22] Alison: So I’d just say, yeah, seek support, whether that’s through social media, there’s lots of support online, or through local infant feeding, definitely. And just, everything will pass as well, you know, things can be really tricky. And yeah, things will change. If your baby’s having a really difficult time sleeping, in a few weeks it’ll be totally different.
[00:23:41] Alison: It’s just, you’ve just got to get through. You have that resilience within you, you can do it. And look back and think, wow, I did that. So just kind of keep, keep going. And yeah, mothers are amazing, I think. I don’t know what else to say.
[00:23:54] Lisa: Mothers are amazing. And, uh, you’re amazing. And thank you for sharing that amazing story about free birthing and wet nursing.
[00:24:05] Lisa: It’s, it’s, it’s really a unique take on it. And I wonder if it’s a sign of the times, you know, if we’re going to be hearing more about With it, with being wet nurses, like that’s a
[00:24:16] Alison: different, that’s a different thing in a way, isn’t it? Oh, I know. Like if to feed, I don’t know how I feel about that.
[00:24:21] Lisa: But like culturally, it was
[00:24:23] Alison: interesting to hear, you know, about families supporting each other.
[00:24:26] Alison: And I think that’s great, you know, family also friends that can feed. But yeah, it’s a really different way of doing it because obviously in the past we wouldn’t have had that ability. But now with the internet, we can connect with people who have got that freezer stash that you could use, that they, Need to move on.
[00:24:40] Alison: So it’s hopefully, yeah, it’s just a different option for people to consider when they’re thinking about feeding their babies. I do feel from this project, it does feel like I’m getting to explore things that maybe I’ve just kind of put away, but actually trying to look at it and reframe it. And yeah, it is empowering looking back how we have gone from such a tricky time and it’s going really well now.
[00:25:01] Alison: So. Yeah, it is, it is an empowering thing. So yeah, thank you for letting me be part of the project.
[00:25:07] Lisa: Well, thank you for volunteering. It’s been lovely talking to you, Alison.