Interview with Aamta
[00:00:00] Aamta: My name is Aamta. I’m based in Bradford and I’m an artist and producer. I have been for around eight years now and my child is currently three years old. She just turned three in May. The last time I breastfed was about a year and a half ago, I think, yeah, a year and a half, two years ago. And my breastfeeding journey was from the birth of my first child from the 12th of May 2021 until she was around seven to eight months.
[00:00:36] Lisa: Did you anticipate breastfeeding? What did you know about it beforehand?
[00:00:40] Aamta: I knew that I wanted to breastfeed. I definitely knew that I wanted to breastfeed and I knew that it was the better option for my child because I did a lot of reading and educated myself around the benefits of breastfeeding. I definitely knew that that’s something that I wanted to do, and it feels really weird because I’m saying this now, but I kind of knew what I was doing, and I didn’t know it.
[00:01:09] Aamta: It was like I was in this kind of place where I was there, but I wasn’t there, so. And it was really difficult because of various different things, so like, my child being tongue tied, or my breasts hurting really bad from lactation, or being filled too much, or kind of producing too much milk, and them ripping and bleeding, and um, Those kind of things, so, yeah, it was, it was quite difficult for me.
[00:01:40] Aamta: And I was in the midst of perinatal depression and postnatal depression as well, so that’s why I have a feeling of like I didn’t really know what was going on. Did you have
[00:01:51] Lisa: support for breastfeeding, like after the birth, for example?
[00:01:56] Aamta: When she was born, I had an emergency C section, and I only spent one day in the hospital after my surgery.
[00:02:04] Aamta: And there was only one nurse that helped me kind of lactate and collect my colostrum. Apart from that, I didn’t have no help. I went to the doctor. They went to the GPs and I tried to contact local charities or like doula services or breastfeeding organisations. But from what I remember, I don’t feel like there was any support because my main source.
[00:02:32] Aamta: of support was like going to the GP’s and every time I went I thought she had tongue tie or I didn’t understand why she was in so much distress when I was breastfeeding or why I was feeling so much pain when I was breastfeeding and they kind of just brushed it off.
[00:02:49] Lisa: There is a doula programme, like a voluntary doula programme in Bradford, isn’t there?
[00:02:56] Lisa: Yeah, there is. Did you think about that before the birth?
[00:02:59] Aamta: Yeah, so, I actually didn’t. It’s really complex to think about because I had perinatal depression, so I was severely depressed and anxious throughout my pregnancy. I was in a state of paranoia and I just wanted to protect my baby so it was, it’s really strange to talk about.
[00:03:20] Aamta: That’s how I felt and in hindsight I should have reached out to them but I didn’t because I was really anxious and paranoid and I just wanted to really protect my child even though she wasn’t born yet.
[00:03:33] Lisa: You could say that it also is the job of the professionals around you to encourage you to reach out or to reach out for you or to support you in reaching out.
[00:03:42] Lisa: I was doing therapy
[00:03:43] Aamta: throughout my pregnancy, counselling therapy and they would signpost me but they wouldn’t actually help which I feel like would have helped me quite a lot in getting more support than I should have. Yeah.
[00:03:55] Lisa: Yeah, I mean, I suppose the thing is, it’s the resources are so limited that everybody does what they can.
[00:04:04] Lisa: And sometimes with someone who is really, you were obviously really vulnerable at that moment. a lot more could have been done perhaps to help you making those decisions. It’s really tricky. I mean, I look back and think I wish I’d had a doula if I was to have another child. And what do you think? Would you have a doula next time?
[00:04:26] Aamta: Yeah, I would definitely, definitely have a doula. I think it’s really good to have someone there that can support you through your pregnancy. That’s someone who’s not your family member. It’s quite hard pregnancy and post pregnancy to share certain feelings or certain thoughts with family members because they won’t understand, I don’t think they would understand.
[00:04:52] Aamta: It’s nice to share that and get help from someone that’s outside of the family, but who is also gentle and who understands what you’re going through and understands the process and understands why you’re being the way you are being. Because in pregnancy and after pregnancy, you know, you become like this woman that just wants to protect the child and, you know, you just become someone that is different because that’s your nature as a mother, right?
[00:05:22] Aamta: It would be nice to have someone that would understand why I’m acting a certain way or saying certain things. Or doing certain things. But yeah, I would definitely have a doula. I was quite alone. I was in my breastfeeding and my pregnancy journey. I was quite alone. Like I didn’t have any help apart from my husband.
[00:05:44] Aamta: So yeah, I would have a doula. It
[00:05:46] Lisa: sounds like the journey of breastfeeding that you had was quite a painful one. And how did it feel to be alone in that? It felt sad. It was
[00:05:56] Aamta: sad. Yeah, it was, it was sad and it was, um, it was not nice. Um, it felt like I needed my mother to help me mother, but I didn’t have that.
[00:06:14] Aamta: Like I said, if I had a doula, I understand that they wouldn’t be a mother, but they’d have that kind of motherly, you know, Place in your life to kind of guide you through, gently guide you through how to be a mother, basically. But it was really hard for me and it was a sad time and it was frustrating as well.
[00:06:34] Aamta: And I was, I was really angry because I wanted to be a really good mother and I wanted to give my baby the best that I knew that was the best for them. Like, so breastfeeding and all the nutrients from breast milk and all the good. You know, vibes and energy and, and all the great things from, you know, breast milk and breastfeeding, but unfortunately I couldn’t do it for longer than six to seven months because it was just really taking a toll on me.
[00:07:05] Lisa: Six to seven months is a long time, Amta. I mean, it’s Yeah, I’ve got some friends, most women,
[00:07:12] Aamta: I know a lot of people. I’ve got a friend who’s super, super strong. She’s such a strong lady, and she’s breasted for about four years, like back to back, and she’s still breastfeeding. Her third child shares the same birthday as my child, and then she’d gone to have another baby as well.
[00:07:32] Aamta: And she’s, so she’s breastfeeding both of them at the same time, and I just think, oh my god. I wish I could have done that, and I’m super happy for her, but like, yeah, I know six to seven months is a long time, but it’s just,
[00:07:45] Lisa: yeah. Is her heritage Pakistani, like yours, British Pakistani? No. No, she’s British by working class,
[00:07:54] Aamta: yeah.
[00:07:55] Lisa: It’s nice to hear that there are these beacons and that women are going after what they want to do and getting on with it. She’s
[00:08:05] Aamta: super, like, liberal in the way that she’s so proud of it. Like, she openly posts pictures of her breastfeeding her children and it’s just so beautiful to see. Because it’s just like, she’s, without her knowing, she’s kind of breaking those boundaries.
[00:08:21] Aamta: Like, she’s just kind of being like, yeah. My babies are having lunch, like, she’s breaking down those barriers of, like, sexualising, breastfeeding, and all those kind of things, so, and I absolutely, like, love that for her, and I commend her for it, because it takes a lot of guts to be able to do that.
[00:08:40] Lisa: Not everyone can do that.
[00:08:42] Lisa: I feel like I, I started this project because I felt it was unfair that women were having to do that. And there are some women who, who are able to do it, but it takes such courage and such fortitude and certainty. Um, because you get so many messages saying, are you still breastfeeding?
[00:09:04] Aamta: Yeah, or some person on the internet is like, oh, put them away, that’s disgusting.
[00:09:10] Aamta: It’s just like, well, no, because my child is having breakfast or lunch, dinner. Yeah.
[00:09:17] Lisa: So, did you know her in those early days post Natalie? Is she a friend that you knew?
[00:09:25] Aamta: Yeah, we shared our pregnancy together, so she was kind of like my online kind of friend that we would kind of message each other every day because we got pregnant around about the same time and she announced her pregnancy first on like online on Facebook, I think, and I messaged her saying, Oh my God, I’m pregnant too, but I haven’t told anyone.
[00:09:48] Aamta: And we kind of went through similar things like we both had perinatal depression and we were kind of there for each other and it was really weird like thinking about it now we like message every day and she’d be like oh yeah baby’s kicked today what are you having i’m having a girl oh my god i’m having a girl too we both had c sections emergency c sections and Yeah, she was a bit like my support, uh, because she gave me a lot of advice, because she’s not, she wasn’t a first time mother, so she gave me a lot of advice with kind of what ointments to use or medications to kind of alleviate pain, like salt baths and, you know, the nipple creams or the nipple shields and all that kind of stuff.
[00:10:29] Aamta: Oh my god, it’s bringing back so much memories.
[00:10:32] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:10:32] Aamta: I’m
[00:10:33] Lisa: happy to hear that you had someone like that. I’m happy to hear that you weren’t, you know, that although you were quite alone, because I’m realising Maya’s birthday was in May, so Maya is a lockdown baby.
[00:10:46] Aamta: Yeah.
[00:10:47] Lisa: So, that is quite a big thing, isn’t it?
[00:10:51] Lisa: You were, you were in that cohort of the first lockdown that gave birth at that time.
[00:10:56] Aamta: Yeah, I was like, towards the end of the last lockdown, so I was so scared and anxious to be, you know, giving birth alone because it was at that time where no one could go with you to the hospital or be there to kind of help you through your birth.
[00:11:17] Aamta: And literally two days before I had my, my girl, the ban was lifted where you could have one birthing partner with you. I was so relieved that I could have someone there. to help me through that, uh, even if it was just one person and I just needed one person, which is my husband, that was going through my whole pregnancy with me.
[00:11:39] Aamta: I think the reasons why, like when I was saying previously, like I was so anxious and paranoid through my, my pregnancy was because of COVID and when I was pregnant, COVID was still a big thing then, like they weren’t sure on how it would affect unborn babies or mothers and, and things like that. So I think that’s what.
[00:12:01] Aamta: Took a big toll on, on me and my mental health as well and my paranoia. I was just so paranoid.
[00:12:08] Lisa: Well, it was a paranoid time, wasn’t it? And it was hard. For everybody to hold some sort of reality intact, but if your reality is shifting because you’re pregnant and you’re going through this transformation at the same time, I can imagine that’s a real challenge to remain a solid sense of the world and yourself when so much around you is in this crazy flux.
[00:12:33] Lisa: I mean, you know, we held on, didn’t we? in those years to each other and to what we knew because so much was different. Everything was different, wasn’t it? And so
[00:12:47] Aamta: When I was pregnant, like, I had so many complications, like, I think that’s what added to my paranoia as well. I’m also My husband, he’s got MS, so multiple sclerosis, and he was furloughed and I wasn’t furloughed, but I was off sick for the whole duration of my pregnancy because I had that many complications.
[00:13:09] Aamta: I felt like I was nesting, you know, when you, when you’re pregnant and you nest, I was nesting the whole nine months. That’s how I felt. And because I wanted to protect my husband and my child and myself, and I was just like,
[00:13:22] Lisa: Yeah. I didn’t know your husband had MS. Have you
[00:13:25] Aamta: ever told me that? I don’t think I have.
[00:13:28] Aamta: He got diagnosed when he was, just before we got married, so he was 18 and we got married when he was 19 and I just, we were both 19 when we got married but I just turned 20 but he got diagnosed a year before we 18. He’s had it for a very long time.
[00:13:44] Lisa: And so he would be in the group of people that’s clinically vulnerable in that whole 2020 period.
[00:13:50] Lisa: Yeah, and then you give birth in May 2021, maybe things were lifting but still that’s very tense time.
[00:13:59] Aamta: It was so out of my control my, my pregnancy and my birth and things after that I just felt so depressed all of the time. It was Because of my complications, like I couldn’t control the fact that I had hypermercies, like I had a HG where you’re sick.
[00:14:17] Aamta: So when women are pregnant for the first 12 weeks of the pregnancy, it’s a complication where you’re just constantly puking. And I was puking, I was vomiting like every half an hour and it got to the point where I couldn’t eat or drink and I was just vomiting every day for about seven months, every 30 minutes to 15 minutes, just like.
[00:14:40] Aamta: Retching. It was really bad. It was to the point where my teeth became loose and, uh, it was, it was horrible, but yeah.
[00:14:47] Lisa: Charlotte Bronte died of that, you know. It’s euphemistically called morning sickness, but it’s way, way, way beyond anything that you might describe as being based in the morning or just sickness.
[00:14:59] Lisa: It’s much more like a kind of, yeah, I mean, it’s a life threatening illness, but it’s not serious. Back then anyway.
[00:15:06] Aamta: Yeah. People can die from HG if it’s not properly, kind of, looked into. Like, you can die from dehydration. And it actually traumatised me so much that I don’t have another child. Because I’m so scared.
[00:15:22] Aamta: Because once you get it, like, it’s, it’s more likely that you’re gonna have it again. And I’m just so scared. I want another child, but I’m just so scared to, like, go through that again. Because it was It was horrific.
[00:15:34] Lisa: It sounds like such a rollercoaster. I mean, so the pregnancy itself was difficult. The context of the pregnancy was difficult.
[00:15:43] Lisa: And you were sheltering with someone who’s clinically vulnerable. And then, you know, not knowing if you’re going to have a birth partner. I can really, it’s sort of that context just, it’s like illogical. It’s almost just a very rational thing. Response is to become depressed because there’s so much that is so triggering.
[00:16:06] Lisa: Yeah. In that,
[00:16:07] Aamta: yeah.
[00:16:08] Lisa: And, and in terms of breastfeeding then, that also sounds like that was extremely challenging. Was there any upside to it that helped you at all, or was it just more incredible challenge? How do you think about it when you look back now in terms of those six, seven months?
[00:16:30] Aamta: It was a really great thing to connect with my child.
[00:16:34] Aamta: It was really liberating and it was a great feeling knowing that I’m providing my child with something that they depend on and that I’m connecting with them, that I’ve got that 10 to 15 minutes to kind of just, you know, they’re just with me, they’re connecting with me. Yeah, I love that. I love that time.
[00:16:57] Aamta: But it was painful like you were running the field. Sometimes the way that she’d latch onto me and, like, bite my nipples and stuff and that was really painful with, even though she had little gums, it was still really painful because there was ripping, there was bleeding, it was sore and all them kind of things.
[00:17:15] Aamta: I almost got mastitis as well, like, it was, like, getting blocked constantly. It was just, yeah, salt baths. Looking back at it, I would say that I’m really grateful for having that time to connect with my child, to be able to just hold her close, yeah.
[00:17:37] Lisa: If you had to advise someone, I mean, sure you do advise new mothers, but like, how do you phrase it?
[00:17:43] Lisa: Like, if they ask you about the experience of motherhood, you know, what would you say in terms of like, advice to new mothers?
[00:17:56] Aamta: When someone asks me how it is being a mother or being pregnant or going through birth, having a C section or breastfeeding, I always tell them that motherhood is not easy. It’s not easy at all.
[00:18:13] Aamta: I try not to tell them my experiences because I don’t want them to have that preconceived thing in their head where I’m going to be expecting this. You know, I kind of just I offer them a listening ear, and I offer them a shoulder to cry on, or someone that needs to give them a hug. I don’t give them unsolicited advice, I say, I understand how hard it is, it can be, and I promise you, if you ever come to me, there’s not going to be any judgement.
[00:18:49] Aamta: There’s no pressure to come to me and tell me things, but if you ever need me, I will be there for you 100%. And I understand, 100 percent understand how it feels to be in your own head and to just want to kind of talk to someone. And I feel, I know how it feels when You feel like no one else understands you and I will be that person for you.
[00:19:16] Aamta: I always say that to anyone who is my friends or family because essentially that’s what they need. That’s what mothers need. Mothers need that emotional support. They need to connect. Even when you’re, like, when you’re pregnant, after pregnancy, you need to connect with someone who will just listen to you.
[00:19:36] Aamta: Who will just listen to you and understand you and just be there for you, 100%.
[00:19:44] Lisa: Oh, that’s just lovely. Thank you for that. It’s really lovely to talk to you about it. Because obviously we’ve talked so many times and I’m sure the first time we talked, we did talk about your early experience. But hearing you talk about it now is really wonderful.
[00:19:59] Lisa: Because I’m sensing that you’ve, you’ve moved on since I last saw you. There’s something in you that’s more clear and constructed than last time I saw you. You feel really solid. Yeah. You think, is it, are you still, what happened with the antidepressants? Are you off them or are you back on them or? I’ve reduced them.
[00:20:22] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:20:23] Aamta: I started my medication straight after I stopped breastfeeding. So like six months into postpartum I started my medication because I was even paranoid what it would do to my child if I was taking medication and breastfeeding as well and I guess that’s the reason why I’m reducing it as well because if I want to become pregnant or have another child in the next few years I don’t want to be medicated whilst I’m pregnant or have those things in my, in my blood or my body, when my body’s making milk again I don’t want that to be in my body whilst, even though I had a really hard time the first time around.
[00:21:06] Aamta: I will be breath feeding again. I will 100 percent do that again.
[00:21:10] Lisa: Yeah, and I hope that if you have the opportunity to do it all again, that it’s just a lot easier.
[00:21:17] Aamta: Yeah, me too.
[00:21:19] Lisa: Mothers do tend to report it being easier for the most part. Because the transition to motherhood is, is a transition that once you’ve undertaken it, you are a mother.
[00:21:32] Lisa: You’re a mother of one child and then you become a mother of two children, but the transition to motherhood happens in that period post birth with the first child. And I suppose as someone who never had more than one child, I guess that’s, That’s really my key area of interest, is that initial step into motherhood.
[00:21:53] Lisa: What that means to us, you know, how we do it. I mean, if you were to think about it now, you said something very beautiful about mothers needing to have someone to talk to and to be reassured by other mothers, and also about being taught by your own mother how to mother. That was your need. I felt this very strong desire and need to be held by other mothers.
[00:22:17] Lisa: You know, to be nurtured, to be looked after. In my days postpartum, I, I imagined how wonderful it would be to be in sort of Stone Age times. I imagined this community of women that would come and wash you and brush your hair and, And and you and like cleanse you and bathe you and care for your baby and just nurture you.
[00:22:41] Lisa: It’s like, surely this is what we need. Where are these women? I need them. You know?
[00:22:48] Aamta: And I think that’s where the phrase you need a village to when you know, when you’re looking after a village Village, when you are looking after a child, you need a village to raise a child. And I think when I think of that phrase, I.
[00:23:03] Aamta: I think of a mother being held by other mothers, um, and I would like to be, like, As you asked me pre previously, I would like to be that person for another mother, um, to be that person that holds them and is there for them outside of their journey as a mother, like recognizing them because it is so easy to get yourself lost in, in motherhood and because everything just becomes about the baby.
[00:23:39] Aamta: Um, how’s the baby? I wanna come see the baby, you know, this and that and the other. And what about the mom? You know what I mean? And, um, that’s why I always make sure that if a friend has a child, or, you know, if one of my family members, you know, You know, as a child, I’m like, instead of giving, you know, bringing a gift for the child, I’ll bring a gift for the mother.
[00:24:05] Aamta: So I’ll be like, here’s a face mask, here’s, you know, a bar of chocolate, here’s a gift receipt for a spa day or something. So I’ll I’ll always give a gift to the mother rather than the baby because it’s the mother that needs to be sustained and be happy to be able for that child to thrive and, you know, be alive and, you know, for the mother to be, be able to look after that child, the mother has to be looked after.
[00:24:33] Aamta: Um,
[00:24:34] Lisa: so yeah, I mean, I think it’s such a, a huge kind of, Mistake. That whole thing of taking, like, everybody focusing on the baby, you only need to focus on the mother and the baby will be looked after. It’s all about the mother
[00:24:51] Aamta: and
[00:24:54] Lisa: babies are nice and they’re cute and, you know, but they don’t want anything except that other dyad.
[00:25:02] Lisa: So there is no use to all this noise about the baby.
[00:25:08] Aamta: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:10] Lisa: And it’s, it’s, it’s hugely distracting. And I think, like you say, you get lost in it because you lose a sense of yourself because suddenly you’re not, you’ve done this huge thing, giving birth, growing a baby, birthing a baby, and then feeding a baby.
[00:25:29] Lisa: And in the process of this, everybody comes and just ignores you. .
[00:25:33] Aamta: Yeah.
[00:25:33] Lisa: I mean, you know, you could run a marathon and get more attention.
[00:25:38] Aamta: Yeah, yeah. And I, I definitely, I definitely felt that I, I, I definitely felt that at times when I give, when I give birth, yeah. It was. It was really isolating. It was, it was, it was difficult.
[00:25:58] Aamta: It did kind of put me into a pit of depression because I used to think, well, I’ve grown this child for nine months and I’ve gone through all of these things and it’s just like, well, it’s just small, like, things like, oh well, The child looks like, the child looks like the dad or, uh, you know, like, congratulating the, you know, the dad, like, but I’ve gone and I’m feeding the child, I’m producing its food, and I’m growing the child, and I kind of was caught nine layers of my body to get the child.
[00:26:41] Aamta: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s madness. It’s crazy.
[00:26:45] Lisa: It’s a kind of erasure, isn’t it? And I don’t think it’s deliberate, but I think that it is massively damaging and it needs to stop, you know.
[00:26:57] Aamta: It’s being a part of society and all communities and just in the world for the longest time. It’s just being a part of the way people behave and act in all communities.
[00:27:12] Aamta: Like, from the beginning of time, and it’s that element of patriarchy as well, like, it’s the art, it’s so complex, a lot of things kind of, um, feed into this certain thing, but, yeah. But
[00:27:28] Lisa: I think
[00:27:29] Aamta: in the time
[00:27:29] Lisa: that we live in, right now, with women who are working, and then take time off, you know, and leave work and go and have a baby, This is particularly not useful.
[00:27:43] Lisa: I think in the past, okay, you could say in multiple cultures the similar thing, but there’s also within those cultures more of a community based way of raising a child and so, so there’s a lot of kind of benign and incidental support that would happen. And so, because the mother is, her needs are being cared for, it doesn’t matter so much the, perhaps the language around it and the symbolism, because ultimately, it’s As long as you’ve got somebody else holding the baby and you can sleep or you know, there’s plenty of people carrying your baby around and you’re able to cook or someone’s cooking for you or you’re being loved in all these multiple ways and it’s being demonstrated to you that you are cared for, then it doesn’t matter.
[00:28:34] Lisa: But when you’re on your own in a kind of nuclear family situation, you’ve left the familiar situation that you’re used to, which is probably work, you’re now At home, which is the, you’re only really there at the weekends or if you’re off sick, suddenly you’re at home for a year and you’re on your own.
[00:28:52] Lisa: You, many of your friends may not have children, so a lot of your actual existing social network is elsewhere and possibly not interested or even possibly disapproving. You don’t know, like, depending on your age. For me, it was that all my friends had had kids 10 years before, so they were sort of like, well, I’ve been there, done that sort of thing.
[00:29:14] Lisa: So I didn’t really have, I had one friend.
[00:29:17] Aamta: Yeah,
[00:29:18] Lisa: sorry, what were you
[00:29:19] Aamta: saying?
[00:29:20] Lisa: Well, I only had one friend who had a baby at the same time, which was, which was helpful, but it, it wasn’t enough. You know, I needed, um, and she, well, two friends had had babies like maybe 10 months before me. But, so I didn’t have an existing network of women to draw on, I didn’t have family to care for me or cook for me, and I think that’s a very normal situation for women today, and I think then, in all of that context, for people to be saying, Oh, well done for having a baby, to the father, and, um, you know, Oh, I brought a present for the baby, then that type of erasure, that it feels, it’s, it’s, It’s naked, isn’t it?
[00:30:00] Lisa: It’s brutal.
[00:30:03] Aamta: It is. It was actually the opposite for me, like, I was the first of my friend’s circle to have a baby, and it was really
[00:30:16] Lisa: That’s also part, yeah.
[00:30:18] Aamta: It was really, it was really lonely. Um, yeah, it was, it was hard and it was, it was lonely because they didn’t, they didn’t understand. Yeah, they didn’t understand.
[00:30:33] Aamta: Like, so for example, I’d have my, I’d have my child and, Like I’d go away for the weekend to maybe London with a friend or something and I’d severely miss my child and my child would probably, was probably like seven months at the time. I think it was when I didn’t have to breastfeed anymore. That’s when I went and I’d severely miss my child.
[00:31:01] Aamta: It was aching me, my body, and she just couldn’t understand like why I miss my child so much. And it was like It was fine, like, it was for her, it was just like, oh wait, you’re going to see her on Sunday evening anyway, and I was just like, that’s, like, it’s, you don’t, yeah, you don’t understand, like, that’s all I’ve known for the last two years.
[00:31:28] Aamta: I’ve been on my, like, I’d be at home for nine months because I was off my whole time of my pregnancy, off work because I was sick and then obviously maternity leave and everything like that. Like that’s all I’ve known for two years. Like my child, that’s all I’ve known. This is the first time I’m away from my child and my whole body aches because I miss my child.
[00:31:56] Aamta: Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, you know, making plans or can you come here? Do you want to do this? And I’m like, well, no, I can’t because I have a child. Um, why can’t you leave them with the dad? Like, no, I can’t. Oh God. It’s things like that. Yeah, all the
[00:32:17] Lisa: explaining that is so tiring. And I think that’s where, you know, because we don’t have this community of mothers around us to sort of nourish and nurture and it’s not even to necessarily take care of us.
[00:32:29] Lisa: I mean, that would be marvellous, but just to understand, just not have to explain is, is so relaxing. And, and Yeah. So I, I
[00:32:41] Aamta: remember that, um, I was, I was feeling really alone and I was, I was feeling a desperate need to connect with other mothers around me. Um, so I signed up to this app called Peanut and this app helps you to connect to other mothers around the local area.
[00:33:00] Aamta: Was that good? Um, Peanut. Yeah, was it, was that useful? Yeah. So, uh, sorry, I thought you asked What’s that called? Sorry, so I signed up and Um, it’s like, it’s like Tinder, but for mums, like, so you can swipe right if you like the mum or you can swipe the other way if, you know, like the mum, I don’t know, for example, you don’t, you don’t want to connect with that mum because her children are a bit, like, older than what your child is.
[00:33:30] Aamta: So, yeah, I was, I’d connect with all these mothers around me and yes, we’d talk, but it was like, I, what I observed from that experience was, yeah, these mums want to connect, but they actually don’t connect in real life. So it’s a way of, I can’t really describe it. So yeah, they’ve connected and they’re saying hi, but the conversation never kind of goes further than, hi, hello, how are you?
[00:34:02] Aamta: Like, where do you, you know, where are you like, where are you based and, and things like that. And then when plans do happen, they actually don’t. Until you never actually meet in real life.
[00:34:16] Lisa: Yeah, I know what you’re quoting about. I remember that it’s almost like being inside a, it’s like being inside a weird bubble where you can’t seem to communicate.
[00:34:27] Lisa: It’s like we, we both have children. Do you not have a lot to say? You know, is there not a lot to talk about? And, and it’s almost like Obeying these weird social, um, rules, um, that have been set up for you. And I couldn’t understand why women were complaining so little. You know, why they talked so little about what they were going through.
[00:34:54] Lisa: And so it makes you think, nobody’s going through anything but me. You know, it’s all me. I’m the only one. It took me a year and a half to start really being like minded women who were able to frame the experience of motherhood for me in a way that helped me get the words to describe my experience. I, until I met those women, um, who I mostly met through my daughter’s nursery and they were all early mothers of the Holding Time project.
[00:35:25] Lisa: The ones who really put into words for me what it was I was experiencing. Um, until I met them I felt really at sea. Like, just floating about, uh, going to baby groups, seeing women who had babies, seeing them interact with their babies, having very, very surface based conversations, and coming away having done something, having put a lot of effort into getting there.
[00:35:53] Lisa: And just feeling so tired at the end of it. It was probably good to get out of the house, but quite often I think, is it really worth it? You know, what am I getting out of this?
[00:36:06] Aamta: And it’s, it’s crazy to think about that because you were one of those first people for me. So, yeah. So I’d never met a mother that was, I’d never connected with a mother that was, um, like minded like, like me.
[00:36:24] Aamta: Um, but since I’ve obviously had a friendship with you, I’ve had other people in my life that have given birth, and I feel like I’ve been that person for them. So it’s kind of been like, um, Energy, like, kind of shifting things, like, yeah, it’s, it’s been amazing, but,
[00:36:45] Lisa: yeah. Oh, I’m so, I’m really happy that that was, you know, my, you know, because when we spoke, you just met me exactly where I was, so I had no idea you hadn’t had those conversations.
[00:36:59] Lisa: up until that point.
[00:37:02] Aamta: Because I’d have, I’d have, I knew people that were pregnant and had kids, but their experiences were completely different, um, from mine, or even if they were similar to mine, they weren’t really truthful with how their journey really was. Whereas when I met you, it was quite refreshing because it was like, yes, having a baby is amazing.
[00:37:29] Aamta: Yes, doing all of this is amazing, but it’s also important for these other things to happen and to do these other things and talk about these other things. Um, yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was, Really refreshing. Um,
[00:37:48] Lisa: yeah. Thank you. You’re very welcome. It’s funny, I’ve got a friend who’s over from New York and she and I knew each other when I lived in America.
[00:37:59] Lisa: And she is now a therapist that works with mothers. And she was asking me about the Holding Time Project and I was saying, well, you know, by the time I started the Holding Time Project, The conversation for me began, maybe it’s a bit like with you and Maya actually, because Maya might have been a similar sort of age.
[00:38:17] Lisa: For me the conversation opened and began when Lily was about one and a half or 18 months when I met these other mothers. And then finally I started to find the words to describe my own experience. I felt I just felt like mistrust up until then of what other people were saying. It’s like, how can it be so straightforward for you?
[00:38:38] Lisa: How can this be straightforward? How is it possible that this, it’s almost like walking up Everest and there’s, you know, there’s just people coming down going, Hey, how you doing? You’re like, Oh my God, I’ve got the oxygen mask. And I’m, you know, I’m really panting. And this is, A lot of times it’s really gruesome, you know, this is gruelling and other people are just like flying up and it seems easy and you think how could it be so easy for them?
[00:39:01] Lisa: Um,
[00:39:05] Lisa: you’re still there, I think you’re frozen.
[00:39:08] Aamta: You kind of feel like you might have broken something, that you’re somewhat wrong.
[00:39:17] Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Can you hear me
[00:39:20] Aamta: now?
[00:39:21] Lisa: I mean, I sort of wonder now if maybe that is the experience of postnatal depression. I was never diagnosed with postnatal depression, but Can you hear me now?
[00:39:30] Lisa: Can you hear me?
[00:39:35] Lisa: You have frozen, I don’t know why.
[00:39:49] Lisa: Maybe, um, if you can hear me, Anton, maybe try leaving and coming back in. Okay, I can hear you. Oh, there you go. You’re fine
[00:39:59] Aamta: now. Hmm, there you go, you seem to be back. You just froze. Yeah, I moved my phone from the left to the right and it seemed to work. But yeah, yeah, yeah, but I was saying, I was saying it feels like you’re broken and there’s something wrong with you, like, why can’t you do it properly?
[00:40:19] Aamta: Um,
[00:40:21] Lisa: I, now, now when I reflect on it, I wonder if this thing that we’re describing, you know, the, the uphill struggle that others don’t seem to have. I wonder, is that to do with being, is that to do with the postnatal depression? Um, is that the different experience that women have? Or is it to do with neurodiversity?
[00:40:42] Lisa: Is it that some women who are neurodiverse feel motherhood? differently, they experience it differently. It’s like this whole massive sensory experience and I, I definitely feel that I would identify as neurodiverse and I feel there’s so little understood about what, how, how that impacts your experience.
[00:41:02] Lisa: of pregnancy and motherhood, all that rapid change and massive adjustment and disorientation. Um, perhaps it is just a, a processing problem, you know, that I That’s exactly how, that’s
[00:41:19] Aamta: exactly how I felt disorientated throughout my whole journey. That you’ve just hit the nail on the head, like the word I was thinking of, that’s how I felt, disorientated, like, I think back at it now, it just feels like there’s flashes of different memories, but it’s all like muddled into one.
[00:41:41] Aamta: And that’s probably because I’ve got CPTSD, and I’ve got memory deficiencies, so the way my brain stores memories and And yeah, it’s different to like a neurotypical person. Um, but that’s literally how I feel. I felt disorientated throughout my pregnancy, throughout my birth, throughout my breastfeeding journey.
[00:42:06] Aamta: And I’ve just recently, up until like, I would say eight months ago, started to like, remember, remember stuff properly, not properly, but gradually. Yeah. Thanks.
[00:42:21] Lisa: It’s, it’s, I think that some of it for me was a problem with absorption. I was struggling to absorb the newness of it all. Um, so I could, I felt like I wasn’t grasping it, you know, that, that it was escaping my grasp.
[00:42:38] Lisa: I couldn’t quite get hold of it. So it was slipping out of my hands and It was so frustrating, like you said earlier, frustrating, and it made me so angry, and then what was even more infuriating was watching other people who seemed to be able to grasp it easily, adjust quickly, um, move through it gracefully.
[00:43:04] Lisa: And, and with elegance and sort of carry on functioning. And I would look at them and think, how are you doing that? You know, it’s like a magic trick. Like, how did you manage to integrate?
[00:43:19] Aamta: Yeah, that’s it used to really annoy me when I used to see that and a big part of that was like, Um, social media, like the mother’s new mums on social media, like Instagram and TikTok, like them just gracefully like bouncing back after pregnancy and breastfeeding like it’s like just a walk in the park and cooking and cleaning and, and doing all of these other things like literally two days after they’ve given birth.
[00:43:47] Aamta: And I’m just like, just like, how are you doing? Like, how are you doing that? Um, but yeah, it was, yeah, I didn’t have enough people around me to feel like that by just observing it, but I saw it quite a lot on social media and I was, I got to a point where I was just like, yeah, I’m doing it. off my phone, um, because it’s really toxic for me right now.
[00:44:15] Aamta: And I can’t be holding these people as, in my mind, as examples or competing with them because they’re just not my, they’re just not real life. Um, and it was making me feel worse. So yeah, I had a, I had a social media cleanse for about three months. Um,
[00:44:36] Lisa: I’ve had a social media cleanse for about 10 years.
[00:44:42] Lisa: I just, I just never find that, I mean, I find Twitter useful in terms of finding out about stuff and having, you know, interesting discussions and research. I find Instagram really, I don’t know, I think within 20 minutes of looking at Instagram, I feel down. I just don’t find it makes me feel good about myself or what I do, even though I see lots of other people doing interesting things.
[00:45:08] Lisa: I just feel It makes me feel inadequate. Um, and Facebook, I, I don’t know. Actually, Facebook these days, because it’s only really quite old friends that are on Facebook, it mostly is just like, oh, so and so’s gone on holiday, or he’s kind of gone a bit back to what it was originally, you know. Um, because I don’t, I don’t spend much time on Facebook, but really I spend almost no time on any of them.
[00:45:36] Lisa: But having said that, I do like YouTube and I think YouTube is quite a practical thing, you know, in terms of Do you need to know how to put this tent up? If you do, there’s a video, you know, I do like the sort of usefulness of YouTube.
[00:45:51] Aamta: Yeah, I found, I found YouTube really, really useful at the beginning of my pregnancy and, um, In my postpartum, like even for like how to do salt, salt baths or like, uh, naturally like eliminate mastitis or prevent mastitis and how to kind of apply certain ointments or make home re remedy, uh, ointments for your nipples, like cracked and bleeding nipples or whatever.
[00:46:21] Aamta: And how to check your child for . Wow. ’cause you could never get a gp.
[00:46:29] Lisa: You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean that wasn’t there. I’m pretty sure that wasn’t there when I, when I had Lily. But I, I, I’m glad that of all the social media channels that I bothered with, YouTube was the one that I bothered with for the Holding Time project, and I still feel that it’s, it’s, It’s really solid.
[00:46:48] Lisa: The content doesn’t go away. That’s what I like about it. The content stays there. Um, whereas Instagram, it’s just such a, you know, it’s just all disappearing all the time. There’s, it’s, it’s, it’s really not suitable for someone like me. Um, I don’t want to be endlessly sharing everything. I’m quite secretive by nature.
[00:47:10] Lisa: I like to reveal when I have something to say. I don’t really want to be dripping in all the time, every second minute, my thoughts.
[00:47:19] Aamta: I’ve become very protective and secretive since I had my child. Yeah. Like before I didn’t kind of divulge into every thing in my life, but I’ll like post a selfie here now more than like every other month, but like, I haven’t posted anything for about three years now.
[00:47:41] Aamta: Um, yeah, like it’s social, when you have a child, um, once I had a chat, like I was so paranoid about putting her picture online and because I didn’t know the type of creeps, like. Who were on my following list, like, you don’t, and this might sound really, like, straight, you know, it might sound really weird, but you don’t know, out of all of your friends, who is a paedophile, or who is a creep, or who is a pervert.
[00:48:15] Aamta: So I just kind of, by protecting my child, I’d not post my child, not, I didn’t announce that I was pregnant, I didn’t announce whatever, like,
[00:48:26] Lisa: Yeah,
[00:48:27] Aamta: yeah, I, yeah, I stopped being, I only kind of use it for work purposes now.
[00:48:34] Lisa: It’s gone through, and actually when, when, you know, Lily now is 11 and what you find at this age is it all becomes about smartphones.
[00:48:42] Aamta: Yeah,
[00:48:43] Lisa: I mean she’s got a flip phone, and I’ve talked to her about it a lot. And she’s happy with the flip phone. She’s not asking for a smartphone. You know, the number of parents that I meet who are so sad that they gave their children smartphones. I’m just so happy that we just kept with, you know, pen and paper, scissors, glue, tape, you know, real creativity and real communication and not, you know, I was always cautious not to use my phone in front of her when she was young, you know, I would obviously end up doing that, but to not make her feel that the phone was more important than her.
[00:49:23] Lisa: Because it’s all modelling, they’re copying us and, um, yeah, and I feel really strongly about it. I don’t want Lily’s image on social media. I don’t even, actually at this point, I don’t even want her friends to take her picture on their phones. I don’t want her face to be out there. I mean, that is kind of like probably getting towards the paranoid.
[00:49:45] Lisa: Um, in terms of a lot of parents probably do think that I’m a bit of a pain in the arse, but I, I really resent it. And I look at her, um, I look at her peer group and they are, they are, I, the way I see it is our private life is kind of like the new world. And the smartphones and the social media companies.
[00:50:09] Lisa: They are the ships coming over from Europe, ready to colonise every last square inch of it. We have some freedom in our own homes. We have freedom in our own minds. That’s the last place, you know, where we’re truly free. And once they land on your shore, and they walk in the door, once they’re in, you can’t get them out again.
[00:50:34] Lisa: So keep them at bay. That’s quite, that’s quite a flowery description of it. It is flowery, but it’s kind of what I’ve started to theorise is that actually this is the last landscape that remains untouched, you know. And we’re giving it, we’re giving it away, you know, we’re giving it away in exchange for a few poultry beads.
[00:51:01] Lisa: We’re exchanging something so precious, which is our privacy, our identity, our inner thoughts. We’re, we’re sharing them. I mean, I know that I’m sharing thoughts here right now with you, and that this will be edited, and we’ll make a podcast and some of that will be, but we’ll, it will be, it will be scrutinised by me and you, we’ll look at it, we’ll decide what we feel comfortable with, we’ll maybe do another edit.
[00:51:28] Lisa: There’ll be a conscious decision about what we offer to the world, you know, through that channel. But I think it’s extremely dangerous to offer that kind of technology to little kids who are defenceless.
[00:51:42] Aamta: Yeah.
[00:51:42] Lisa: And expect them to just survive it. I just think it’s nuts.
[00:51:48] Aamta: Yeah.
[00:51:49] Lisa: They don’t need it. So there’s an interesting piece of work to be made there, I think, about smartphones and kids.
[00:51:57] Lisa: Um, but there’s not enough hours in the day and years left in my life to be making all the words that need to be made, you know. Someone else will have to go and make that one.
[00:52:11] Lisa: You can see that it’s depressing.
[00:52:19] Aamta: Lisa, I’m anxious of the time. Yeah, I know. I’m really enjoying this conversation with you. It’s been a joy. Thank you.
[00:52:29] Aamta: Last questions that you want to ask me, then shoot. As is often
[00:52:35] Lisa: the case, we have gone into the subject, we’ve come out the other side and we’ve gone somewhere else completely, which is what I love about doing these interviews. It’s always just, it’s not always, but sometimes it’s so much more than I could ever hope for, you know.
[00:52:52] Lisa: Just setting up I’m a tangent queen so Me too, me too, but it’s not a tangent, we’re not talking tangents, we’re talking just a deeper conversation, the second conversation underneath the first one. And that’s where I love to drop down into and sort of really kind of splash about in those, you know, those thoughts like, what is this thing and why is it, why was it hard for you?
[00:53:18] Lisa: Why was it hard for me? for having me. Is it easy for other people or are they just lying? I suspected they were lying. No, I think maybe some people really genuinely do find it easy. Everyone’s a liar! It’s a conspiracy.
[00:53:32] Aamta: And I guess, yeah, I don’t know, I, like, some people have, I think it, some, some women are like, Yeah, I was born to be a mother.
[00:53:45] Aamta: All I want to do is be a mother. Um, I think for people that, for majority of the people that feel like that, and feel like that’s their ultimate goal in life, it might be easy for them. But for me, I never saw myself having kids un until I met my husband, um, which was quite young, like, like, I, I don’t know, I feel like I was quite mature for my, for a, from a young age, and I never saw myself having kids, um, but when I met my husband I was just like, like, even a few years after I was just like, I don’t know if I want kids, and then, um, When I, when I, early twenties, I was just like, okay, I can find, yeah, I can see myself having kids.
[00:54:38] Aamta: I don’t know. I don’t know. But I think, I definitely think it’s a neurodiverse thing as well. Like I agree on some of the points that you made there where for neurodiverse mothers, their journey will be completely different. Sensory overload, mental overload, physical overload, like it’s just a lot. Yeah.
[00:55:02] Lisa: Yeah. And if everything was set up for neurodiverse mothers, it would be great for everyone. It’s like school. If school was set up for neurodiverse kids, it would be great for all kids.
[00:55:15] Lisa: So it’s worth, it’s worth looking at what, what would have made it easier, um, for us. And I think, you know, that’s kind of the question that I’m always trying to ask with this work is, is how could this be better? How could it be improved? So, and what, what is within our power? What can we do beyond being a good role model or being a good friend?[00:55:42] Lisa: And having the conversation. That is really powerful. It’s really powerful, but is there more that others should be doing? Rather than us doing all of this for ourselves, you know, is there more that should be done? And if so, what is it? What do we need?