Rachel
Rachel: Yeah, I grew up in Bradford and I lived here. Yeah, I’ve lived here most of my life but I have lived abroad as well for a few years. Before I had my first son, I was living abroad and then I moved back again. But when I’ve been in England, I’ve mostly always lived either in Bingley or, yeah, at the moment we’re in Saltaire and worked in Bradford as well, in Bradford areas.
Lisa: What did you do for work?
Rachel: Oh, so, well, I’m a, I’m a teacher is the easiest. I do lots of different types of teaching. So I teach, I’m like qualified as a secondary teacher, so like Spanish and French, but I also teach English as a foreign language. I’m also trained in um, antenatal, um, hypnobirthing classes.
Lisa: So, tell me about your experience of breastfeeding. Were you breastfed, for example?
Rachel: I’m one of four, and my mum, um, breastfed all of us actually, and she Yeah, so we talked about this bit when I had my first and her experiences and she was very much, yeah, she breastfed us all, um, but she never spoke to me about, like, any difficulties. So when speaking to her before I had my first, it was just kind of like, oh yeah, breastfeeding’s like easy, it was like the easy option for her.
She was like, you know, it’s easier, it’s cheaper, you don’t have to prepare bottles. You just feed baby wherever you are, but there was never like this kind of like the other side of it, which I discovered like after I have my my eldest and like the struggles that I had and the other women have. I think she just, I don’t know if she was lucky or if she’s just like blocked out maybe that it was hard I don’t know because it was so long ago.
Maybe she’s just forgotten that and remembered all day. We can kind of look back on things can’t we with like a different view, so I don’t know which of those it is. Um, but yeah, so I think for me, when I had, when I was pregnant with, um, my eldest, I always just assumed that I would, like, give birth and just breastfeed, and that would be it.
It would be this natural, um, kind of straightforward. thing and because in my like within my um friendship groups and like I had uh my eldest when I was 29 so like It’s different isn’t everyone but within my friends. I was one of the first to have a baby So I didn’t have much kind of like and I had these conversations about what it would be like I think it was just one friend and we had one quick conversation about it and she was like Just be aware, it might not be, might not be as straightforward as you think.
Lisa: And that was kind of it, that was the only like, little glimpse into breastfeeding that I had. How was it with your first?
Rachel: With Luca it was really difficult, it was really hard and I think I just wasn’t, I’d spent a lot of time. Um, mentally preparing for like the, the birth and informing myself about the birth and all of that.
And then it’s almost like, I had this quite a positive experience. Actually, I say it was a very positive birth experience with him. And then he was, he was here and I felt amazing. And then suddenly it was like I had this little baby and then I just had no idea like what was next. I remember at the hospital, I stayed in the hospital a couple of days.
And the midwives were great and came around and, um, helped with latch him on. And then as soon as I got home, it was just completely, it was the opposite. How did they do it? What am I meant to do? How am I meant to do this on my own, when there’s no one here? And I was, uh, so I was, uh, so, like, I was on my own with Luca from when he was.
Well, from when I was pregnant, I was at home. I’d just moved into a new place. I just moved into an apartment on my own. And yeah, I didn’t really have, I was like, who do I ask for help? Cause I didn’t know any of that hadn’t been signposted to any of the things I know about now and the kind of different organisations that work with breastfeeding.
I hadn’t actually heard of it, I didn’t really know who I was meant to, I was just like, Oh, I’m just gonna have to wait for the next midwife visit. and ask, you know, for help there. Um, so yeah, I kind of, I found this first, I’d say it was about four or five weeks that I just, like, really, like, struggled with, just really kind of, like, tried to keep going.
I found it really, well, painful is the word that comes to mind. I remember it just being, like, painful every time I was feeding, but it’s kind of like the thing that you know, that everything else was, you know, Kind of quite lovely, like I had this new baby and it was summer and it was like, but every time he was hungry, I was like, Oh, I’m gonna have to, you know, like your body like tenses up because you’re like, Oh, I’m gonna have to feel that pain again when he latches on.
And I knew that that wasn’t right. I was like, it shouldn’t be painful. Um, it’s almost like you, you start to accept it. You’re like, okay, at some point it’ll get easier. That’s what I think, that’s what I had in my head, was that at some point if I keep going, it’ll just become an easier journey and then at some point within those weeks I did reach out. I think it was the health visitor who referred me to a lactation consultant. And so I went back to the hospital and had a meeting with the lactation consultant. It was the same kind of thing. It was like she helped, and it was, it was obvious there was something wrong with my attachment, and she helped me a lot.
But then I went home, and it was almost like I was fine whenever there was someone else there to help me, as soon as I was on my own. I couldn’t like, recreate moments. Like, I’d be able to do it in front of someone. They’d be like, You’re doing it fine, yeah, you’re latching him on fine. And then I’d get home, and suddenly I couldn’t latch him on.
And then after about I think, yeah, I think it was about five weeks. Suddenly it was like, something just clicked. And it started to become easier, and it started to become less painful, and I was like, okay, if we carry on, maybe it will just become this natural thing. Which it did, but it took, yeah, I just hadn’t expected it to take that long. And actually, in hindsight, it’s, it’s, four weeks doesn’t sound like a long time, but when it’s like they’re feeding [00:07:00] constantly in hospital, the midwife would say, no, maybe, maybe he’ll cluster feed and he’ll feed a little bit, he’ll feed kind of in a, a few times, and then I’ll have a longer break.
Or maybe it’ll be every three hours, but she was kind of like, it’ll be about about eight feeds every 24 hours. And I just found it wasn’t like that at all. It was like constant feeding. And I just wasn’t prepared for that and so that was hard. It just felt kind of like a relentless few weeks of, yeah, muddling through.
And did you, um, did you ask your mum for help? Do you know? No, I didn’t really ask my mum for help. I think because, yeah, she was just, it was hard really. Like, I think she was just like, didn’t see it. She hadn’t had that issue or if she had, she didn’t think about it. And so she was like, oh, it’s just, you know, yes, they just, they just feed It’s just. She hadn’t, it’s almost like we couldn’t, we were just on a different page about it and it’s, and she thought it should just be this natural thing that just happened and nobody could understand why I was struggling. It can be quite a lonely thing I think, like ceding at the beginning and not knowing where to ask for help or where to find the support.
Lisa: Well, 24 hours is a really long time, isn’t it if you’re in pain?
Rachel: Yeah.
Lisa: And yes. You did five weeks and it’s brilliant you were referred to a lactation consultant. That’s amazing. Did you have the same problems with this child?
Rachel: No, what’s interesting is actually this time I felt like I was, I was much more informed.
Like I’d heard about, um, places like And I know where the groups are and I know a lot more, you know, where to find support. And actually this time, so I had him in the hospital and, um, it was kind of the same thing. He latched on and it was okay in hospital. And I was like, oh no. In [00:09:00] terms of feeding and like it being painful, it wasn’t, he kind of latched on and then at home he latched on again and he fed and I was like, oh, that was, yeah, I wasn’t expecting it.
So it was like a really. Pleasant surprise. Are you on your own still with him? With both of them, or? Yeah, I’ve chosen to have him on my own. Um, so I’m on my own, but I feel more mentally prepared this time to do it on my own. Um, but I’m still, you know, I’m near, yeah, I’m, I’m still near family in terms of help, like, practical help. And then breastfeeding support, yeah, I’ve found local groups, there’s a local group that I go to. I’ve definitely felt like this has been an easier journey in terms of breastfeeding.
Lisa: How do you feel when you look back on the first sort of five week period with, with Luca? Do you have any sort of insight that you can share about what that was about?
Have you discovered anything in all the training and conversations you’ve had since of what might have been the problem? Because it’s really interesting that you could latch fine and pain free with other people, but on your [00:10:00] own it kind of went to pot, you know?
Rachel: I wonder if with Matteo, since I’ve been through that before and so I know what a good latch feels like as well, like I know what it, in the beginning, if he was latched on and it felt a bit painful, I would unlatch him and re latch him on again, which I don’t think I did with Luca.
I think it was like, it’s almost like I accepted, like, oh, it’s going to be painful from that. Just go with it. And now I’m like, actually, it’s not meant to be. If it’s maybe painful when they first latch on, there’s something wrong with the attachment. I wasn’t really aware of that the first time. I just thought it was kind of almost like it was meant to be.
Because once I started speaking to women, like, lots of women have that issue that it’s painful to feed. And so I just kind of thought it’s just something you have to, like, folder through and get through that, those painful weeks until it becomes less painful and then not painful, and I fed Lucas so long
Lisa: And like you say, once you become a really experienced breast feeder, you just don’t tolerate any pain and yeah comes with years of practice, doesn’t it?
Which you just don’t get if you’re only breastfeeding a child for nine months, which is quite often you find women in England who did breastfeed in the sort of 70s and 80s, they did only breastfeed for like six months. Like our generation of women who are coming to breastfeeding, already only like maybe one percent at six months exclusively breastfeeding.
I mean, who knows what the combi feeding numbers are, but it’s still like talking about really really small minority of mothers that breastfeed and the actual mothers who could help are these mothers like yours who did breastfeed. Like our generation, but typically they didn’t breastfeed longer than nine months.
And so their knowledge is actually quite limited because I think women who breastfeed full term have really, really rich knowledge that it’s just different, isn’t it? I mean, the relationship changes so much and you see so much how breastfeeding is such a tool for infant child development.
Rachel: Yeah, and just that I was saying to someone the other day, I was having a chat about this and we were talking about how the difference between Just that comfort, like if, it’s not just feeding them, it’s like, you know, they hurt themselves.
It’s like, okay, well you can offer milk and that’s going to be a comfort rather than they don’t, you know, might be hungry, but it’s just that, like, automatic, like, relief when they latch on and they’re like, okay, this is my, like, safe place with mom feeding, or if, you know, there’s so many things that’s not actually just feeding, it might be like, yeah. illness or overtiredness or, you know, not being able to, like, have a bit of a kind of an emotional moment.
Lisa: I love this quote by, there’s, do you know Dr. Sears, the physician? I remember reading about full term breastfeeding and he, he said, the quote I always remember is that there is very little research into the benefits to children who have been full-term breastfed.
It’s just kind of like a scientific way of saying we just don’t even know what we don’t know about this. Yeah, there’s a lot of guilt and shame around, say, feeding a five-year-old, but I always sort of think, well, you know, mothers never breastfeed children, um, longer than they need to. You know, they never will say, Oh, please carry on breastfeeding.
Rachel: They’ll tell you to keep feeding. Yeah.
Lisa: Yeah. It’s not something you’re going to try and persuade your child to do. Like, as soon as you can finish breastfeeding, you do. Because, obviously, there are massive advantages to not breastfeeding. That’s how it goes. It’s like, what are all the benefits that those children are getting, and nobody, nobody’s measuring it. It’s amazing to me.
Rachel: I only had a bit of pushback from, so Luca’s dad, who actually lived in another country, at some point realised, he was like, oh, but you need to stop at one, because one’s like the time that women stop. And I was like, oh, like, where’s, you know, where’s that thinking coming from? And he went, oh, in Colombia, women just stop at one.
And I was like, well. I’m sure like not every, every mother just stops when they get to 12 months, and they kind of, I’d sent him some things to read to see, I’m not sure if he was very interested but yeah, that was the only kind of like unsupportive like comments I got. But other people, I don’t know, yeah, family were kind of, I think they thought it was a bit strange.
They were, no one telling me like, right, you need to stop now. Like, you know, he’s too old.
Lisa: I always like to ask, do you have, like, are there nice places to breastfeed in public around Bradford City Centre or around the area of Bradford or in Saltaire?
Rachel: Oh, that’s a good question. Um, there’s a nice local cafe that I go to.
It’s got a nice sofa in a corner and it’s like this cozy little corner that’s like a nice spot and it’s a big sofa so I can go with Luca as well. And we just all kind of like carry on the sofa. Bradford City Center, I was interested actually the other day we went to the media museum and. I went to change him in the changing room, and in the changing room there was a seat for like, and it was like, ah, feeding and changing room.
And I was like, ah, I just wouldn’t want to, I don’t like sitting in a room on my own and feeding, so I tend to avoid. I think it’s nice that there is that option for people that need it, but I would rather just somewhere with other people. Was there anywhere to sit? Um, yeah, there’s like, there’s quite a lot of seating and I’d feed in, yeah, wherever.
You know, there’s this fear, isn’t there, that someone’s going to say something. I’ve only ever had someone come up to me and say something nice, like, oh, I can’t remember, would Luke it like it’s nice that you’re feeding your baby or, you know, doing the best for your baby, something like that, but I’ve never had any nasty comments.
And I’ve maybe had stares, but I just find it easy to just ignore.
Lisa: I think the biggest barrier is, is psychological and with your own internal taboos.
Rachel: I was definitely more self conscious, when Luke became older, I mean he would, obviously at that point he would be feeding a lot less anyway, it’d be like night time, maybe the morning, but if he wanted to feed out and about when he was older, I guess after two, I became more self conscious of it then, I think because of that perception of someone, because you don’t often see that, and in my mind I’m like, oh I’ve not really seen that.
Lisa: It’s just been really nice talking to you, it’s been a real pleasure.
Rachel: Yeah, it’s been lovely talking to you. I really appreciate, yeah, what you’re doing. I think it’s such a, I think it’s such a wonderful project. Especially just still speaking to women now, the second time around, and new mums that are having their first babies and continuous things always keep coming up.
Lisa: Yeah, the other thing I wanted to ask is if I could use Luca’s poems as well, because, I mean, they’re absolutely lovely, those drawings and poems that he did.
Rachel: I think I’ll be fine. He really enjoyed it. It was actually really lovely. That first session we went to, I took loads of things for him to do and he was like, Oh no, I just want to join in.
I was like, okay. And he started writing and then drawing pictures of breastfeeding. And then straight after that, we went to meet friends, and he wanted to share this poem. He was like, Oh, can I read you my poem? And then he said, It’s all now. It’s kind of like he wanted to share what he’d written. Yeah, he really enjoyed it.
And then I was saying to a friend, it was really lovely for him because he, yeah, he loves it. He’s quite a creative soul. He loves drawing and writing at school. He’s at that age now where Everything’s quite, you know, when they, they’re creative, it’s very structured. And he was like, Oh, we don’t get to free write at school.
We don’t just get to write what we want at school. We have to use, you know, whatever their prompts are and, you know, worksheets. And he said, oh, can we do free writing sometimes? It made me laugh because I was like, oh, it’s just a They should just get to do it at school, but I was like, yeah, we could have like, you know, maybe on a Friday afternoon, come home and we can just run it.
And we did it one day, we just sat and um, sat and wrote. It was really nice.
Lisa: That’s what I mean about the benefits to, to kids. You know, we all have a mother, and we are all vulnerable as children, and breastfeeding is a way that makes children feel really safe and deep, isn’t it?
Rachel: Yeah, it is. And I think even though, because he said now he doesn’t remember, he did, like, I think it was, yeah, just the day before when I started, he just one day just didn’t, he would just have a little morning feed and then one day just didn’t ask.
And that was it. It kind of was very just stopped. But I don’t think he remembers it. But then I think the way that it must have shaped him and his, and our bond, even though he doesn’t have a memory of it, it’s just really special.